Canadian Judge can't determine if software is pirated

[Crown]

Dear B/Board users;

I am a new user and am here to blow some steam. Piracy is abhorent to me and I will always make the effort to avoid it where possible. This will be a long post, and don't read it if you have heard it all before.

I purchased a computer SYSTEM from my traditional builder and relied on their expertise to do what needed to be done. When I got my system home, it worked, I had lots of pamplets CD's but notably no OS discs. I asked the builder if I needed to purchase it and he said "NO". From that I only assumed it was some sort of bulk license agreement with XP that does not come with CD's. The builder told me, with XP what do you need the CD for, it is totally recoverable you only need the hard disk copy. Ok, I'm not a shuttle pilot or a computer whiz, so who is going to listen to me if I argue with the builder. He's the expert.

Later when I had mother board problems it was not possible to download the necessary drivers because I needed the CD so I asked the builder what / where / how? They told me the OS was not marked on the invoice. If I wanted one I would have to buy one and as it was no longer a new computer I would have to pay them more. I called microsoft 1800rulegit and gave them my product key number and they told me that it was a pirated key. I asked what MicroSoft was going to do and they said nothing. So I served the builder and went to court over it. Doh.

The Canadian Judge said this in the judgment " This leaves the issue of whether of not XXXXXX installed a pirated Windows XP Professional operating system on YYYYY's computer. Again, I find that YYYYY fails on this issue for lack of reliable, convincing proof. First, Mr.YYYYY failed to prove, on a balance of probabilities, that his system was pirated at all."

This does not seem logical to me because the MicroSoft representive "Collet" over the phone was able to assure me the system was pirated. I had given the judge copies of screen shots showing the registration code and I had given the judge copies of MicroSofts list of pirated codes.

There is one ultimate point I want to make to the respected and knowledgable members of this message board and I came to this decission regardless of all other resolutions and encumberances or liabilities on all parts. At the end of the day, the OS system software is nothing more than an increasing burden which is entraping the consumer into liabilities which are beyond their ability to avoid or even understand. Its time to take the OS system out of the loop and make the OS hardware. To say that a thing can not be done only inspires someone to do it.

There is more to this case, I might elaborate, and I might not.

Crown

[njovin]

Let me start off by saying that I'm very sorry about your situation. It looks like the judge you got for your case was unfair. Even a judge not familiar with software piracy laws, when presented with the facts you stated, should have ruled in your favor.

I must also note, however, that you should have been suspicious from the get-go when you were not charged for an OS. It would have been one thing if they had charged you for a pirated copy, but since, as you noted, the OS did not show up on the invoice, did you think you were getting it for free?

My main point is that you can't have a "hardware OS." This would present so many problems to the modern model of home computing I can barely even get into it here. What happens when there is a security flaw found in the OS? Do you have to go out and buy a new piece of hardware to replace it? What happens if a new peripheral is released and there are no drivers in the hardware OS?

Not only that, but having the OS as a piece of hardware would not prevent "pirate" copies from showing up. As a mod-chip hobbyist, I have seen many companies selling mod-chips for gaming systems that purport to be from reputable manufacturers, but which are actually "rip-offs"

I understand your frustration, but rather than attack a computing model that has worked quite well for decades, I think I would be more upset at the Canadian judicial system if I were you. Also, if you keep on Microsoft about it, I wouldn't be surprised to see them go after your builder, they usually aren't very tolerant of people mass-distributing pirate versions of their products.

my two cents.

[Crown]

Firstly Njovin, let me thank you for your considerate and well thought out reply which I believe is an honest attempt to bring the primary issues into a balanced and bright illumination.

Secondly, I value your insights and am not formulating an attack on you or your knowledge base when I try to respond or disagree with some of your perceptions in the way which I am able to do in this medium

From the get go, I can't say what I thought about the OS not being on the invoice. Honestly, it was composed of entirely serial numbers which for the most part, to the guy who buys a new computer once every 3 or 4 years is difficult to attribute to which part is what. For example, currently cases are supplied with powersupplies and other necessary hardware and not invoiced. What should be listed on the invoice. What about cords and what about all the software discs the come with the hardware and other cool stuff. Should the buyer demand that the builder list each software disc and each cord on the invoice if in the event a cord is faulty and disc scratched? The purchaser who requires these type of details on the invoice may find they won't get it.

I think many system buyers may be surprised to discover the OS now costs as much as the hardware minus the monitor. Knowing that, the invoice should say Operating System with computer but that's not the way it is. I doubt that I can excuse myself for not being knowledgeable enough to interpret the invoice but would a normally prudent person possess that expertise? If after an item by item discussion with the builder I find the OS discs are not listed and the builder says they come with the system, should the buyer ask the builder to put them on the invoice? I don't think that sundry items left off the invoice are considered free, but a few years ago, powersupplies were not consider sundry. What will OS cost in 5 years? Perhaps they will once again be left off the invoice as was MSDOS a sundry item. Whats on an invoice is one thing, but if a degree in philosophy depended on a list by the student of everything not on an invoice, the list could be infinite and then added to later by an expert.

Good point about the customer being billed for a pirated OS, but again, the judge was unable to determine that the OS was pirated, so in this case, it may have resulted in the same judgement.

About the OS being included in the CPU, a lot of basic commands already are. And your input here would open up my reasoning further, what does Apple do for an OS and do they have any problems like this?

Crown

[njovin]

Apple runs OSX or OS9 or what have you as their OS. It is sold just like Windows, has bugs just like windows, and gets updated just like Windows. I am assuming Apple does not have nearly as big a pirating problem as Windows does, primarily because only a very small percentage of computer users use Apple, and traditionally those who do are not "hackers".

You make a valid point about the complexity of a computer invoice. On second thought, I realized how confusing most of our invoices look, and to someone not familiar with these things, it would be very intimidating.

One important thing to know is that every windows PC should come with a sticker containing the Windows XP Product key. This sticker is usually brightly colored and has some holograms on it, as well as a bar code and a Product Key (which is required to install windows). Most builders will put this sticker somewhere on the case, but some will leave it stuck on the package containing the OS Discs (which you should receive)

When buying from a builder (and by that I mean a local computer shop who builds custom machines), you will always have to pay for the OS, which should be listed seperately on the invoice, and you should always receive the OS discs as well. When buying from Dell or HP or another large manufacturer, they often will not give you the discs, but the product key will ALWAYS be included with the machine, if the OS is not pirated.

If you have any more questions I'd be glad to try to answer them, we've gotten quite an interesting little discussion going here

[Crown]

Thank you again Njovin for your time in examining my post. Perhaps it would benefit me if I knew more about the OS and what part it plays in the computer system.

I have some understanding of the CPU and some of the support chips, but going back to MSDOS, there was considerable controler IC's in the floppies at the time, what did the MSDOS do that could not have been done with additional IC's?

Thanks again for your information.


Crown

[linuxsolutions]

Solutions to your problems:

One word: LINUX.